June 2008: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

Madness

The Cheshire cat suggests that everything Alice experiences in Wonderland is a dream or the result of madness. Carroll, in a diary entry, defined "insanity as an inability to distinguish which is the waking and which is the sleeping life." Besides the obvious absurdities in imagery, what other aspects of these books mimic a dream state?

One goes from one experience to another without any reason why and nothing seems to make any sense. Characters, events, and conversations just seem to be created as one goes along. Nothing seems to tie together.
-Bookworm

The baby turning into a pig, the cat appearing out of nowhere, the tears, the animals talking, growing and shrinking, really all of it.
-Annegirl

That it seems meaningless and scattered, but when you really sit and think about it, you can figure out little snippets that are symbolic of something. I'm not sure what though! I wasn't crazy about this book. I thought it was ok, but it wasn't an addictive page-turner for sure. If I would've immersed myself in it from a child's perspective, I might have enjoyed it more.
-Sanya the Duck

For children?

Since their publication, many readers have found material in Carroll's book unsuitable for children. Which parts of the Alice books, if any, do you think are unfit, or even harmful, to children today.

I think they are unfit, but for a totally different reason. After I read the book, I read the introduction by Arthur Prager. In it he said, "The only people he got along with were children, and his dearest friends were under the age of ten. In their company he lost his painful stammer and created and participated in wonderful and fascinating games. Children adored him. Their parents thought him peculiar and kept a close eye on him." I found this quite disturbing. It could just be Mr. Pragers view on "Lewis Carroll"
-Stampin_Maniac

Alice eating or drinking things that she did not know anything about...whether they were safe or not...was not good. The Caterpillar with it's hookah (smoking pot, I assume) was not a good example. The Duchess shaking the "baby" violently enough that Alice was afraid for its' safety. The queen always shouting "off with his head"! Not the best things for kids and maybe a little frightening.
-Bookworm

As for the fact that he was close to kids that could be creepy or not creepy. If he was like Michael Jackson then yes, scary. If you've seen Finding Neverland and how it showed what he was like while writing Peter Pan, he was just a really imaginative, childlike person but there were people that thought he was creepy. I can understand liking kids better than adults. They are innocent. They tell it like it is. They are fun. They are forgiving. They are curious. THey are imaginative. They are lively. ETC......
I think that there are some inappropriate things like the caterpillar, the duchess, the slight violence but these can also be good ways to start a dialogue with your child about those kind of things.
-Annegirl

Not being a parent, my view may be a little more liberal then if I did...but I don't think children would equate some of the inappropriate things with the story itself. An as Anne Girl said you can talk to you children about the things you do feel are inappropriate.
-Wendy

I think that one would have to rather look at "Alice" as an adventure with your kids in reading rather that try to look for just the "weird" things in the book. If one stops to think about it, I really thought the crazy things in it like the Mad Hatter tea party were pretty funny in the Disney animated feature when I was a kid and even as a grown-up. I guess Karen and I just have to get away from the "adult" way of looking at the story and fine the "child within"!!?!
-Bookworm

Some people consider "Huckleberry Finn" inappropriate for children or adults and yet it is a "classic" book. I read it in high school and found it an interesting read. I think different people could find anything wrong with a book - remember some of the Christian groups with the Harry Potter books. I will definitely either read or let Rachel read "Alice in Wonderland". Sometimes just stopping and remembering the time periods it was written in or what group of people the author is trying to reach with the book helps in understanding it.
-Deenie Bug

I agree that people will always be able to find something inappropriate whether it is there or not. I love the Harry Potter books and I will be reading those to Abi when I think she is old enough to enjoy and get them. I think that is why it is important to be completely involved in whatever your children like- to read the books they want to read, see the shows they want to see... so you can make the decision for yourself and your children.
-Annegirl

I think a kid would just read it as a book of fantasy. As a d u l t s, we are looking into it a little more, trying to see what the characters might really represent... But maybe he did just write it as a fantasy for kids. In the book that I checked out from the library, there was also an Easter letter from the author to the children... Did anyone else's book have that? I thought it was really sweet, and it made me think he couldn't have been a real creepy guy.
-Sanya the Duck

Genre

Traditionally, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and its sequel are both considered stories intended for children. If you were asked to support the contention that these are actually stories for adults, how would you defend this?

I think they are stories for both. They are good for children as it requires a good imagination. They are probably good for adults for the same reason...you have to use your imagination!
-Bookworm

Again, I agree with Bookworm. I enjoyed the book. I think Abi would enjoy it. I am thinking about reading it aloud to her now. I mean, she wouldn't get it all but I think she would think it was funny. I think older children would as well.
-Annegirl

I have tried to read it with the mindset of a child. Coming from a child's perspective, the imagination runs wild. I remember as a child my imagination would sometimes get the best of me. We outgrow that as an adult. A couple of weeks ago I watched the old movie "Mrs. Miniver" with Greer Garson and I think it was interesting in the fact that of all the thousands and thousands of books in the world "Alice In Wonderland" was the book she was reading to her children in the bomb shelter as England was getting bombed. And they talked of "lost childhood". Thousands of children lost their childhood way to early. I think Alice in Wonderland helps to bring back the wonder of childhood and all our imaginations. In a slight way it made me think of the Dr. Suess book "And To Think That It Happened on Mulberry Street". That boy comes up with all sorts of things to tell his dad on the way home from school. I thought "Alice" was an interesting, creative, and fun book to read.
-Deenie Bug

That is really interesting. I may have to watch Mrs. Miniver again.
-Annegirl

I agree, too. I think as adults our viewpoint of the book would be different than a child's.
-Stampin_Maniac

I think as adults we can pick up on things not meant for the children to understand. I think this is why he was so popular with both children and adults.

I also think your mindset going into the book can determine your experience. If you are thinking "children’s book" you can have a childlike experience. Whereas if you are looking for a more complex and interesting experience, you can find that as well.

-Wendy

Well said Wendy. Isn't that true of life as well? I think we always experience what we set out to experience. I mean, obviously there are exceptions... things aren't always perfect and fun no matter how great our attitude.... but I think that we do determine a lot of what we get out of something- be it a book or an experience- from our mindset.
-Annegirl

Following the rabbit

If you were Alice, would you have followed the rabbit down the hole?

I would have followed him until he got to the hole, but I wouldn't have gone down it. I am claustrophobic.
-Stampin_Maniac

I am curious, too, and probably would have followed the rabbit. I wouldn't have wanted to follow him down the hole. But I think she looked in the hole and slipped and fell. So then come what may!
-Bookworm

I probably would have. I like to chase little animals. Sometimes I think I wouldn't do something with animals and then I do. Like the time Dad, Mom, and I were in Marathon, Ontario and early in the am when we were leaving we drive past a black bear. What do I do? Jump out of the car. It's on the passenger side about 4 feet away. I stand on my drivers side and take a pic of it over the car. It goes behind the car and crosses the road behind us coming close enough to me that I should have been terrified. Nope, just kept taking pics while Dad freaks out in the backseat. I wish those pics would have turned out (here is the reason I switched to a digital camera!) I also stopped like this for the foxes on Pei. I always chase snakes and lizards.... I went into some crazy cave once up Santaquin canyon to see if there was anything in it. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I would have hopped right down that hole. Unless there was a mouse.
-Annegirl

Yep, I think you are the one who would not just slip down a hole...you would go in!! You would definitely be "curiouser and curiouser"!
-Bookworm

Conflicts

What are the conflicts in Alice In Wonderland?

How to get the key... how to keep growing or shrinking...how to get to the garden...how to get a cup of tea when the Hatter, the Hare, and the Dormouse kept moving...how to save the "baby" from being shaken to death...how to save characters from "losing" their heads...how to get a sensible trial...how to make sense out of what anyone was saying including the pot-smoking Caterpillar...how to get home.
-Bookworm

To find the white rabbit, to get through that door, to get home safely...
-Annegirl

The figures of adult authority, in all its form. They include figures like the White Rabbit and the Queen. In reality, all the creatures that Alice encounters in Wonderland upset and, seemingly, antagonize her.
-Wendy

Craziness

Did anyone else feel like they were on acid while reading this?

Every time I put the book down, I would say to Brent that Lewis Carroll was high when he wrote it.
-Stampin_Maniac

In reading a short bit about the author, I read that Mr. Carroll (the pen name of Charles Lutwidge Dodgson) who was a mathematics professor at Oxford and amateur photographer, created the original Alice stories to amuse a young friend and her sisters on an outing. After reading that information and reading "Alice..." I feel like he was making up a story as he went (like our family used to do on trips in the car...someone starts out with a few lines and then the next adds to it and the next...it could go in strange directions!) adding strange events and characters and riddles and plays on words just to keep it interesting... not really knowing where it would end. So I think it was a lot of made-up and...topsy-turvey (like our dreams can be). However, when first reading it I certainly wondered if he might be on "drugs"! In early England many use to snuff cocaine (you see them in movies with their snuff boxes taking a pinch) so it could be he was on something. The story surely doesn't make a whole lot of sense and the characters do admit to being "mad". Oh, and then, as I said in another reply, there is the pot-smoking Caterpillar. It does make one speculate!
-Bookworm

I did not know that was what was in snuff boxes. How did I not know that? That is crazy. Well, maybe he was high then. I just felt like I was. Ha. I think that is really interesting how he was just making it up for some kids. I know he based it on a girl named Alice Liddell (I think). That kind of reminds me of the Rudolph story.
-Annegirl

I believe that is the name of a book that I read not too long ago. It is the story of Alice. After years of fighting she gets kicked out of Wonderland. She tells her story to Charles Lutwidge Dodgson and he twists the story all around. It is a very interesting book. One to put on your reading list.
-Stampin_Maniac

Word Play

What were your favorite word plays or puns?

There were so many and I can't remember where to find them now. But I think the conversation with the Cheshire Cat was interesting when Alice asks him which way to go and he tells her "that depends a good deal on where you want to get to". She said she didn't much care as long as she got somewhere. He told her that she was sure to do that "if you only walk long enough".
-Bookworm

Mine was the one I used for this discussion "We called him tortoise because he taught us" I thought that was funny.
-Annegirl

The Purpose

Is Wonderland more than just an amusing story? If so, what do you believe its purpose to be?

That dreams can be very interesting places to go. That things aren't always what they seem to be!
-Bookworm

I agree with Bookworm! I think it is a journey of the imagination.
-Annegirl

Drink Me

If you came across bottles or other unknown objects that said "Eat me" or "Drink me" what would you do? Would you try them?

If it was cake, probably. But not some unknown liquid.
-Stampin' Maniac

I think I would be very cautious about items like that that I knew nothing about. Alice did not know what would happen it she drank or ate (plus eating mushrooms that could be deadly) so she was behaving in a very risky manner. As a child she probably didn't think about the dangers that might be involved.
-Bookworm

Not a chance!! I am so germ phobic I'd be worried about who left them, what they were, and who's kitchen they were prepared in! heehee. I've told Doug, too, that I could never have gone on a mission because I would have ended up somewhere with really "exotic" food and there is no power that could make me eat something weird. I just don't. Funny story though- kind of off subject. In seminary my junior year my teacher had a big bowl of chocolate covered grasshoppers and told everyone to try them. He pressured. A kid ate one. He said it's not so bad.... another kid tried it. Everyone pressured every one else. By the end I was the only one in the entire class who would not eat one. I did not care if they thought I was dumb. No way! SO, then we find out its a test of our ability to stand up to peer pressure. I got the last laugh there. Anyway- so the point of that being... NO I would not drink or eat it!
-Annegirl

Morals

The Duchess says "Everything's got a moral, if only you can find it." What do you think is the moral of Alice's Adventures In Wonderland?

I don't think there was a moral, because it was all a dream.
-Stampin' Maniac

Don't go to Wonderland! It could be hazardous to your health!
-Bookworm

I've been thinking about this one. I think there are a few. I think the main one that I felt was that you can do anything. Like I said in another thread... I felt like Alice cried a lot at the start and then was less emotional and more proactive at the end. I think she showed that you can take charge of the situation that you are in and stick up for yourself even if you are a child.
-Annegirl

Cheshire Cat

Why is the Cheshire Cat important?

I don't really know except that he makes another rather interesting and "mad" creature Alice meets up with. He also tells her which way to go (It doesn't matter which way you go if you don't know where you want to be!) But does tell her which way to go to get to the Mad Hatter.
-Bookworm

I think he is kind of a "guide" for Alice. He gives her some direction and insight.
-Annegirl

Alice

Characterize Alice. How old do you think she is? Does her character change during the story? How?

I assumed she was about seven but I'm not sure. As far as how she changed- in the beginning she was always crying or about to cry about everything. By the end she seemed more sure of herself and more willing to take action to get out of a situation, less likely to just sit back and watch.
-Annegirl

I figured her to be around eight years old. She was "curious and curiouser" from the beginning otherwise she would not have followed the White Rabbit. She did seem to cry a lot in the beginning when she was scared or confused or frustrated. Soon she became "braver" and willing to talk back or state her question or opinion unless she felt she might wise not to.
-bookworm